Dpersonal the corridor from Tom Liddy’s workplace in downtown Phoenix, a whiteboard tracks all of the election legislation circumstances filed towards Maricopa county, the place he works as civil division chief. Liddy has defended the county towards dozens of claims, together with that the 2020 election was stolen and that solely hand-counted ballots could be trusted.
In his workplace, he retains ammunition in a secure to guard himself ought to a risk, which have turn into extra frequent, turn into actuality at work. At his desk, he’s surrounded by images of his household, who’ve additionally turn into a goal.
Liddy is the son of G Gordon Liddy, the longtime political operative who was sentenced to jail for his function within the Watergate scandal. The 15-year veteran of the Maricopa county lawyer’s workplace has run for Congress, hosted a conservative radio present, and defended the county in high-profile trials, together with a racial profiling case that grew to become a nationwide flashpoint.
The lifelong Republican, who calls himself a “pupil of politics”, nonetheless maintains his conservative rules, regardless of the pushback from members of his personal social gathering who’ve sued the county and made him a central character of their assaults. Earlier than his work on the county, he labored as an lawyer for the Republican Nationwide Committee.
In recent times, he’s seen extra circumstances primarily based on flimsier information. A barrage of fits after the 2022 election, when Democrats gained key statewide races, contended that that yr’s election was stolen as properly. The county has succeeded within the courts – although it has come at a political value for the largely Republican elected officers who run the county.
On account of his work defending Maricopa county, Liddy grew to become the topic of a leaked video shared on social media by allies of Kari Lake, the failed Republican candidate for Arizona governor, which he says led to demise threats. The FBI not too long ago filed costs towards a Texas man who threatened Liddy and his kids.
Recognized for his fiery feedback and strongly-worded authorized letters, Liddy isn’t one to draw back from a combat.
“I’d hope that my associates would have form issues to say about me and the individuals who crossed me can be nonetheless pissed off about it,” he stated.
The Guardian spoke to Liddy in regards to the rise in election lawsuits and the way he’s defending his household from violent threats towards them.
This interview has been edited for size and readability.
There have been much more post-election lawsuits after the 2022 election than in 2020. Why do you assume that’s?
In 2020, we noticed quite a lot of lawsuits filed that will by no means have been filed earlier than. I believe it opened up the eyes of lots of people. ‘Hey, you’ll be able to contest these elections extra usually than for those who simply lose by 510 votes.’ What’s totally different is whenever you lose by greater than somewhat bit, and also you sue to not canvass or re-canvass or recount or contest, however simply throw the spaghetti on the wall and see what sticks.
What we’re seeing now, which I by no means noticed earlier than, is people not simply contesting the election, however slightly demonizing county officers or state officers or entrepreneurs who’re within the enterprise of making voting techniques or voting machines. Previous to the top of the Chilly Struggle, the Soviets have been attempting to persuade the world that our system of presidency was no good and was no higher than theirs. And now, I believe that there are people on this nation which might be beginning to really feel that means, or no less than, attempting to influence others of that. I see issues now that I’ve by no means seen earlier than.
In a couple of of the election lawsuits in 2022, Maricopa county requested for lawyers’ fees or sanctions – a uncommon transfer. What’s the thought course of there?
When attorneys go into the court docket, be it a state court docket or federal court docket, it’s possible you’ll solely deliver information ahead and also you’re obligated to do an investigation to find out that the information that you just’re on the brink of current to the court docket are true. We’ve been listening to quite a lot of stuff in 2020, 2021 and 2022 stated in court docket that aren’t true. If any person goes into court docket and says one thing that’s not true, egregiously so, the court docket has the ability to name them on it.
After we requested for sanctions, we got sanctions in federal court. The plaintiffs went in and stated, ‘The elections Maricopa county is operating are unconstitutional as a result of they don’t use paper ballots.’ What? How are you going to say we don’t use paper ballots? The plaintiffs have been two people that have been operating for workplace on the time. Every had voted for themselves on paper ballots for no less than the final 10 years. So we requested for sanctions.
I believe the courts have a duty as properly. We’re a nation of legal guidelines. We adjudicate our variations peacefully in court docket. You’ll be able to’t do it by mendacity to the choose or mendacity to the jury. In the event you assume that’s the suitable technique to do it, then you definitely’re a PINO: Patriot In Identify Solely.
Candidates have filed lawsuits over their losses even when the margins have been huge. You talked about two candidates, Mark Finchem and Kari Lake, who tried to outlaw tabulation machines. Are you able to search sanctions towards the plaintiffs themselves or is that atypical?
Atypical, however there’s a technique to do it. Typically, sanctions are towards the attorneys, not simply because they need to know higher, however they have to know higher. It’s their obligation. There are guidelines of the court docket and guidelines of civil process. One of many guidelines is that for those who make claims earlier than court docket, it’s important to do no less than a primary investigation to make sure that these information are true. You’ll be able to’t simply be employed by a plaintiff, the plaintiff says, ‘up is down, down is up, black is white, white is black,’ and also you write it in your transient and inform the court docket. The requirements will not be that top, however we’ve been listening to some issues that aren’t even near true in a few of these lawsuits for 3 years. Someone’s bought to cease it. The courts have an obligation, for my part.
Are you continue to a Republican?
Oh, yeah.
Most people submitting these egregious lawsuits are Republicans. Has this affected the way you see your politics or your beliefs?
No. I’ve been a Republican since lengthy earlier than I might vote. One of many proudest days of my life was my 18th birthday after I went and registered to vote. I’m an actual Republican and I cannot change. I shall be once they bury me. Now, other people that are available in right here and declare to be Republican or declare to be conservative, they don’t even know what conservative is, actually. I not solely need smaller authorities, decrease taxes, extra private duty, larger protections for the personal possession of firearms, I’m pro-life. Being a Republican and being a Democrat has by no means actually been about being for one candidate. It’s at all times been for a basket of concepts.
However that’s me, Tom Liddy the individual, talking, not Tom Liddy the federal government lawyer. My political opinions don’t affect what I do. I defend my purchasers and my shopper is Maricopa county. I’m pleased and happy to try this. I believe it could be an abuse of the general public belief to hijack authorities energy to profit one social gathering or the opposite. I simply would by no means do this.
How a lot does it value the county to defend itself towards these lawsuits? You talked about that earlier than the 2020 election, you helped the county bolster its election legislation workforce, rising from one specialised lawyer to about eight individuals who dedicate no less than a few of their time on elections. It looks like it’s been costly.
Little doubt that it’s costly. I don’t have that determine. The true expense, a lot, a lot bigger than simply the authorized bills, is the time that the county staff, be they within the recorder’s workplace or within the elections workplace or help of the board of supervisors, need to put into it, as a result of usually they’re doing the federal government’s enterprise. My wage is what my wage is, whether or not I’m in court docket duking it out with any person defending the county or not. These other people have jobs to do. So that you’ve bought to ask your self what they may have carried out that they weren’t in a position to do. The {dollars} and cents is loads however I believe the chance value is far, a lot greater.
The video that captured your telephone dialog with the Lake marketing campaign …
[Interrupts] Captured 2min and 8sec of a 12-minute telephone name.
The video showed a heated conversation between you and attorneys for Lake and the Republican Nationwide Committee. It was posted on-line and unfold amongst right-wing channels to indicate you weren’t being useful or clear with the attorneys. Has one thing like that occurred to you earlier than?
That’s an moral violation for a lawyer to tape a dialog with one other lawyer with out telling the lawyer. So any person put that on the web and stated {that a} Kari Lake marketing campaign volunteer known as me – that’s not true. I known as a lawyer who was working for the Lake marketing campaign and different candidates. We had many telephone calls a day main as much as that. One of many different attorneys there was – and I didn’t know on the time – a lawyer for the Republican Nationwide Committee. After we’d had a dialog and so they had requested me possibly three or 4 questions, I stated, ‘let me go get the solutions for you.’ After which this different man got here on the road and stated, ‘Now it’s actually essential that we get these questions answered shortly … as a result of there’s quite a lot of offended individuals on the market that need to take to the streets, and I don’t need to have to inform them that Tom Liddy has not been cooperative.’
I stated, ‘That seems like a risk.’ I stated, ‘Inform them no matter you need to inform them, however for those who’re not pleased working with me, then don’t work with me, don’t name me, don’t ask me questions. However don’t assume for a minute you may intimidate me, since you can’t, and you may’t intimidate Maricopa county, both.’ I admit I used colourful language. It was recorded, and so they took solely the final two minutes and put it out on the web.
Since then, I’ve been getting demise threats. A type of demise threats could be very actual, very particular. The Dallas discipline workplace of the FBI notified me of it. The FBI got here in and met with my employer and my employer advised me to arm myself and that the ammunition I had was not the right ammunition. They issued me this [pulls out a box of bullets from a safe in his office] – that’s a hole level. That’s a man-stopper. They issued me and my 4 kids physique armor, as a result of this son of a bitch from Texas particularly threatened to kill my 4 kids.
The Texas man who made these threats was just charged recently, proper?
Arrested and denied bail in Lubbock, Texas. That’s the one who threatened to kill my 4 kids, however there are a lot others that weren’t particular. That makes it tough for my household to get pleasure from Thanksgiving, after I’ve bought 24-hours-a-day armed safety round my house, cameras throughout my house and physique armor for my children, and I gotta pack iron in every single place I am going. Pay attention, I’m a second modification man – I bought a lot to guard myself, all kinds of various calibers. Come at me from up shut or distant, I’m ready. However that’s not the way you need to stay. That’s not the way you need to have fun Christmas and Thanksgiving. So this man was arrested I believe shortly after Christmas, however that’s what my household needed to cope with.
Did it provide you with any sense of aid when he was arrested?
Undoubtedly a way of aid, but in addition simply happiness that the system works, any person’s going to pay the piper. Now, he’s entitled to protection counsel, he’s entitled to a trial, a jury of his friends. I’m wanting ahead to flying to Texas to testify towards him. I’ll be pleased to do it as a result of that’s the way in which the system works.
Do you continue to have safety at your private home?
I’m not going to touch upon that. This workplace will present me no matter my household must hold us secure. I’ll say, the risk degree has modified since this man was not solely arrested, however denied bail. However there are nonetheless safety at my house, and we nonetheless have physique armor, and I nonetheless carry a firearm with me.
Is it correct to say that this was not taking place earlier than the previous couple of years? Or have you ever skilled related ranges of threats at different instances in your profession?
I’ve skilled ranges of threats earlier than in my profession, however nowhere close to this quantity. That is the one time that the FBI contacted me.
Elections have turn into so polarized, with threats towards elections officers and attorneys like your self and infinite lawsuits after a candidate loses. What will get us out of this example as a rustic?
I’d say the identical factor that bought us out of earlier issues that we’ve had. Typically the troublemakers are both held accountable, or they fade away, or they disappear in a flash. I believe there’ll be extra than simply lawsuits to alter it. I’m very optimistic that we are going to come collectively once more, and we’ll transfer ahead, and our greatest days are forward of us. However I’m not so naive as to assume we will remedy this downside by one lawsuit right here, one Bar grievance there.
Do you assume issues will get higher or worse within the quick time period, by way of the quantity of misinformation and disinformation after elections?
I believe higher. I believe that quite a lot of the stuff we noticed in 2020 was very chaotic. Among the stuff we’ve seen in 2022 was somewhat bit extra organized. Not essentially properly based, however somewhat bit extra organized. My worry is that this kind of factor turns into an trade and that if individuals could make a reputation for themselves or become profitable, then that’s an incentive to maintain doing it. Election contests are an essential a part of the legislation, however simply suing for the sake of suing, and suing so you’ll be able to say you’re suing after which arrange a protection fund and lift tens of millions of {dollars} – that’s not wholesome for our society.
